PEP Episode 031 — From Cash to Digital: Trust Factors in Payment Solutions with Exact Payments Brandon Zorner

Podcast Description:

Unlock the secrets of payment facilitation and discover how trust shapes our financial decisions. Join us as James Huber and Jeremy Stock sit down with the Chief Sales Officer, Brandon Zorner, of Exact Payments, who offers an insider’s view into the role of non-bank entities like Western Union in delivering secure financial services. Why do some people prefer cash transactions and non-traditional financial services? Find out how trust factors come into play and why these alternatives remain popular.

Ever wondered how payment facilitators like Exact Payments streamline merchant onboarding and payment processes? We unpack the intricacies of the Payfac model, using Toast, a restaurant software platform, as a prime example. Learn what it means to be a “merchant of record” and how efficient onboarding and compliance add significant value. We also contrast these modern solutions with traditional payment gateways and merchant accounts, highlighting their advantages and challenges.

Finally, journey with us through the diverse landscape of business payment solutions. Our guest shares their fascinating career path, from working in Bolivia for a crowdfunding company to joining Western Union in San Francisco. Explore Western Union’s ongoing relevance and the trust factors that keep it viable amidst modern payment alternatives like Venmo and Zelle. We also delve into the implications of new systems like FedNow and RTP, shedding light on how Exact Payments helps businesses integrate these advanced solutions. Don’t miss out on these invaluable insights into the evolving world of payments!

Brandon Zorner (00:00):

It’s really trust related and folks just don’t trust banks. So non-Bank financial institutions have big populations that prefer to use them,

James Huber (00:09):

So they trust Western Union more than they trust a bank. What if the stage coach gets robbed on the way?

Brandon Zorner (00:15):

Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. Been so long since I worked in that industry. I have no clue what creates that trust for folks, but I do think a lot of folks prefer to operate in cash as well.

James Huber (00:29):

Yeah. I’m going to take 200 bucks and send it to Jeremy so he can because that was the other part of the story. It was the dad was sending him money.

Brandon Zorner (00:38):

Yeah.

Jeremy Stock (00:40):

Welcome to the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of Global legal law firm. We hope you enjoy this episode.

James Huber (00:56):

What’s your role at Exact Payments?

Brandon Zorner (00:59):

So I’m our Chief sales Officer, which means that I lead all the new revenue for Exacts business.

James Huber (01:06):

Okay, and what are you guys focusing on?

Brandon Zorner (01:09):

Yeah, so X Exact started as a payments gateway in the early two thousands and we started in Canada, in Vancouver, Canada. So over time have evolved into what we are today, which is a payment facilitation as a service provider for North America. So we do about 150 billion in payment processing volume each year. The focus on providing payment facilitation as a service to vertical software platforms or essentially software platforms that have merchants who need to process under them.

James Huber (01:42):

Are you guys a registered payment facilitator?

Brandon Zorner (01:44):

We are. And actually of folks in the space, we’re one of the few that is a registered payment facilitator. I know a lot of folks are trying to land those, but it’s a privileged spot. So we are a registered pay fac on US Bank and Elon.

James Huber (01:59):

Yeah, that’s great. I mean for a long time people, there was actually the term of art, people are like Pay fac, I’m a pay fac. And I was going, what? So you’re just laundering money basically. And then there was merchant of record, which I’ll still hear, which is not even a term anywhere and someone just made that up. How do you guys say it? Do you know what I’m talking about? Merchant of record?

Brandon Zorner (02:27):

Yeah, I do. So I used to work for Uber and we use the term merchant of record a lot. We were working on a marketplace model. But yeah, exact payments and pay fax is actually pretty easy. There’s a public list of registered payment facilitators that MasterCard puts out there, and so we are on that list and we are a registered payment facilitator with merchants sitting under us. Typically that involves having a for benefit of account that you settle funds into merchant of record oftentimes that you’ll settle funds into the merchant account. And then for folks who want to use a merchant of record model to disperse to merchants, there’s some questions around how you would do that in a compliant fashion that you’re probably better situated to answer than I would be.

James Huber (03:15):

Yeah. So why don’t you walk through, if you can really high level maybe payment facilitator for Dummies. If you can explain what XACT does as a payment facilitator, why would anybody use a payment facilitator and how does that work?

Brandon Zorner (03:32):

Yeah, definitely. So I think it’s helpful to start with just our customer and understanding who the end customer is, which is these software platforms. And a lot of times I like to use the example of someone like Toast. So Toast is a software platform in the restaurant space and they are a payment facilitator themselves, but they support let’s say taquerias, burger shops, et cetera, and they started with something that allowed you to assign a table or show menu and do all those types of things and moved into the obvious use case for a restaurant is you need to accept funds for someone’s tacos or whatever as well. And so the things that someone like Toast is going to need to do when they are thinking about accepting payments on behalf of merchants is they’re going to need to initially onboard a merchant. So that’s the first step of payment facilitation is onboarding merchants and that’s where a lot of the value is added.

Brandon Zorner (04:32):

Traditionally in payments you have a gateway and some merchant account, you need to find a way to tie those together and take a bunch of paperwork approvals, et cetera, weeks, maybe even months to get that done. Payback has enabled third party software providers like us to just go and underwrite a merchant and do that more or less instantaneously or same day. And so that’s the first thing you do onboard the merchant and that’s what a lot of payment facilitation is focused on. The second piece is payments. So you make sure that you can accept payment card credentials with the software platform and often embed those into an interface that’s available for merchants. And so we are PCI compliant, we shield folks from PCI compliance as a part of that. Then you do payouts. So you need to make sure that all the merchants get paid out through Toast platform, make sure that the restaurant gets their payment.

Brandon Zorner (05:21):

If you order a hundred dollars with tacos, typically the payout will be $97 for the tacos and 3% as a payment fee or something like that. And then you do reporting. So a taqueria or a hamburger shop’s going to want to know how much did we accept in payments, how much did we actually get paid, which payments failed? That’s all reporting. We allow our partners who would be a software platform like Toast to actually pull that reporting from our APIs and on the backend things that folks wouldn’t really experience. We’re managing to fight fraud, handle chargebacks, do all of the ledger reconciliation for folks. That’s like pay fac at its core split into the different functions of a pay fac. And then there’s a definition of pay fac that involves oftentimes that for benefit of account model.

James Huber (06:07):

So what’s the benefit of using afac rather than just going the traditional route?

Brandon Zorner (06:14):

Yeah, so I think this goes back to when we were operating as Gateway. We have platforms today with us who even still choose to operate in this route, but a lot of what you’ll need to do is just in order to set up payments is to sign up with someone like a gateway provider, then connect that the gateway is going to accept card credentials for you if you’re a software platform. So again, like your toast or we can use a different example, which would be someone like Housecall Pro that does field services. They actually have big San Diego offices for a while where I know you’re based. But those types of folks are going to be a software layer that would just wants to allow people to accept payments. They have a gateway connection that allows ’em to accept payments, but in order for someone to get a merchant account, that person’s going to have to go to Chase or they’re going to have to go to Fiserv or they’re going to have to go to someone and get a merchant account set up. And that process is again tedious. Usually slow underwriting can be paper that has to get faxed back and forth. And so really the core of what payback innovation allowed for you can think of Square as one of the first paybacks is underwriting merchants, small merchants quickly. That’s what the payback model was designed for and it’s evolved from that into what is today, which is embedded financial services for software platforms.

James Huber (07:26):

Well Square, I mean they don’t even underwrite the merchants, they just approve ’em and then they underwrite ’em three months later and then keep all their money and terminate.

Brandon Zorner (07:39):

Yeah, there’s been a variety of folks that have tried to do that in the space. So essentially do this delayed underwriting and we pay as another example. That didn’t work out terribly well for WePay either, but what we do is we fully underwrite the merchant upfront, so that’s why it’s the same day underwriting process at that point. You can process payments and you’ll get your set funds settled to you in T plus two days. So there’s no staged onboarding or withholding of funds for folks. And so that onboarding experience is great. It’s also nice to be able to participate in the economics of the payment, which is the advantage for us as a payment facilitator. Back when we were selling direct merchant payments, we had to go to each merchant and knock on their door or call ’em sell payments to ’em. Now that we have software platforms that are essentially acquisition channels for us, they have a sticky customer base. And so if you’re already using Housecall Pro as a field service organization to handle your plumbing or your HVAC business, then you’re very likely to want to go and do payments with them as well. And that’s an easy customer acquisition channel for us. So it reduces our cost of customer acquisition, allows us to share in the economics with our customers and then allows those businesses to scale with a pretty sticky value prop.

James Huber (08:53):

Yeah, I mean a payment facilitator, you’ve got the keys to the castle, you step into the shoes of the processor and the bank in a large way in that you can approve the account. You’re responsible. So everything you said about getting your accounts approved, so if it’s these businesses, your business is really expanding and you’re opening up more locations and there are different merchant accounts, I’m going, yeah, go with a payment facilitator because you’re going to get white glove treatment. The other thing too is like I said, you guys have the keys to the castle. Arguably, if you guys wanted to make a ton of money in six months and then flee to a non extradition case, I mean you could sign someone up selling cocaine for a hot minute for a while before anybody caught it. So our listeners that want to sell cocaine, they can probably give you a call and say, look, here’s the proposition, I just need six months and we’re all out of here. It’s a big part of our audience, James, a big, big.

Brandon Zorner (09:59):

So we take our responsibility in financial services very seriously, and what that means is that we don’t touch elicit substances like cocaine or other things. There’s even legal substances in certain states like marijuana that we won’t process for, but

James Huber (10:15):

You could is my point. And so if you have a really good business that’s in the gray, I would say yeah, go to a payment facilitator because look, and I’m not saying you guys do anything wrong, of course not. But you could help these people if they come to you and instead they’re saying, Hey, this is how I’m doing it. And a lot of places can do this, but then they have to go upstream to the processor in the bank to get it approved. So there is those merchant advocacy groups where, hey, I’m selling something online. And they’ll go, okay, well we got to look at your terms and conditions, take this thing off where you’re saying Oprah endorses it. I don’t think she does. And all of that stuff to get you in compliance with the FTC and the FDA and everything like that.

James Huber (11:07):

But the benefit is if you go to somebody like you guys and just a payment facilitator in general, you’re able to get the approval and that approval is final. I mean, I know you guys answer to the card brand still, but for somebody that’s operating in a way that gives that extra layer of safety because right square people were going up and signing up marijuana accounts and they’re just getting ’em a square account, it gets shut down every three months. Or same thing with going over to First Data Fiserv, people are getting these accounts approved, running ’em like crazy and then they’re getting shut down. But if I’m with a payment facilitator and you’ve approved me, that’s much more of a final decision, right?

Brandon Zorner (11:54):

Yeah. I think that there’s a variety of models out there and payback I wouldn’t actually say is a good model for high risk business, and there’s a variety of reasons for that. But just going back to the core of what a payment facilitator is, you have a sponsor bank and an acquirer on the backend that you’ve been underwritten with. So they essentially do a primary underwriting of you and then you have obligations as a part of your agreement and relationship with ’em to do your own underwriting. And there’s two types of risk and payments, it’s transactions risk, and then there’s compliance risk. And so from a transactional risk perspective, you’re right, we hold entirely the bag on transaction risk, and that’s another reason why folks prefer not to do the high risk business. But from a compliance risk perspective, I wouldn’t actually say payment facilitators are entirely on their own to determine that you do rely a lot on your partner bank and your partner, your acquiring partners.

Brandon Zorner (12:59):

So what I would say there is paybacks are actually probably not going to be the best home for that type of business. And a lot of scenarios, even though you do own the underwriting decision because you’re wanting to maintain a healthy relationship to your sponsor bank, and then also you want to grow your book of fairly clean business in that. So an example of this would be we would do something like auctions, which is arguably maybe like a mid risk space, but we would never do auctions for firearms. And so even something like that that is a little bit more like mid risk, we are probably going to err on the conservative side of as we continue to scale our relationship with our sponsor bank, I think probably where you would want to go is a high risk processor if you’re trying to process high risk and those folks are going to have the same issues that you just outlined with Square and Fiserv and whatnot.

James Huber (13:51):

Okay, cool. Well, how’d you get into payments and how’d you guys end up going this direction?

Brandon Zorner (13:58):

Yeah, so for me personally, I started payments at Western Union, which is more of a remittance company than acquiring payments company or doing merchant processing. And so I got into merchant processing at Uber, which is a marketplace for rideshare food delivery, all those types of things. And then exact payments got into payments in the card, not present space with Canadian payment processing. There’s really no way to set up an online business with payments in Canada outside of exact payments. And as that business has scaled, we’ve identified an opportunity to work with vertical software providers, a lot of nonprofit B2B, we work with field services, we work with education, waste management, all those types of things, and embed our technology into those platforms in order to enable them to accept payments and to monetize that business, create a business unit out of payments essentially. And so that’s the story where we’ve come, but in that process, we moved from Vancouver, Canada, which used to be our HQ to Scottsdale, Arizona where we are now, and obviously also have much more sizable business than we had back in the early two thousands.

James Huber (15:11):

What got you interested in working in payments? Western Union is a good one. I mean that’s the og, right? That formed in the 17 hundreds or something.

Brandon Zorner (15:22):

It is until they were market cap went down. So they’re not on the s and p 500 anymore. I don’t think they were the oldest s and p 500 company outside of Union Pacific Bell or something. They’re like 200 plus year old company. But yeah, so I was at Cornell, which is upstate New York, and interestingly, the guy who founded Cornell was Ezra Cornell, who was also the founder of Western Union. So yeah, he storied history of inventing the telephone pole is at least I think what the claim is. But he

James Huber (15:53):

Invented the telephone pole,

Brandon Zorner (15:56):

Which I’m like, how do you invent that? It’s just like a pole that sticks out of the ground. Yeah, I’m

James Huber (16:00):

Just going a tree.

Brandon Zorner (16:03):

Exactly. I’m sure there was a bunch of nuance in terms of how you could mess that up. But yeah, so I then went down to Bolivia and started working for a crowdfunding company. So there was a company called Batana. It’s kind of similar to Kiva that was doing crowdfunding for student loans down there. And when I was working with the Microfinance institutes, a lot of them had Western Union locations in them. Western Union has an agent location model where they sign contracts and put up a sign, but they don’t actually own the location. And so the Western Union line was always really long. When I was down there, I was looking to move back to the United States after a little bit more time in Latin America and Western Union was hiring for a ventures position in their San Francisco office, which is like San Francisco is a cool city. So it was a really good fit for me. Got me back to the US and was my intro into payments. Although I worked at Western Union for two and a half years and at no point in that time did I know what an acquirer was. And so you really learn a very different payments ecosystem. Out of that experience,

James Huber (17:06):

Was it you kind of just fell backwards into payments? This was the job? Or were you hunting that out and going, oh, this is interesting, or I just want to go to Bolivia?

Brandon Zorner (17:17):

Yeah, I mean we were doing lending O Bolivia, right? So financial services always interested me. Cornell is in New York and a lot of people have financial services backgrounds because of New York’s focus there. And so technology, financial services always interested me specifically payments probably not. And then from there definitely fell into payments, specifically merchant acquiring. I think remittance is a very interesting space. It’s just very different than what we’re focused on at Exact, which is very domestic focused and B2B, et cetera. Whereas Mins is more of a consumer product. But

James Huber (17:52):

Does Western Union still exist? What do they do? Is it sending money to Mexico mostly

Speaker 4 (17:57):

Or what? I think it’s friends and family, that type of stuff is old people basically. I think

James Huber (18:01):

James, but there’s got to be going away, right?

Brandon Zorner (18:03):

So interesting. I can’t tell you I I worked at Western Union until 2015, so it’s been a while, but interestingly at the time, so the biggest corridors in the world, vermins are us to India, US to Mexico, US to Philippines. Africa is a big business that usually has higher margin then some of those other countries, but competitors have come into the space and so a lot of the margin got eaten away in intermittent. Interestingly, the domestic market at the time I was at Western Union was picking up, so there was more domestic remittance happening, even though you’re like at the same time as you’ve got Venmo and all these other things going out, you’ve got domestic money transfer via Western Union locations, increasing very old

Speaker 4 (18:44):

People. I kid you not just last week my father sent a Western Union. I kid you not to my sister, so feels more

James Huber (18:52):

Comfortable. And he probably went to the office,

Speaker 4 (18:55):

He went to a Walmart.

James Huber (18:57):

Oh wow.

Speaker 4 (18:57):

I’m not joking to him. That was easier. We tried to tell him about Zelle, like Daddy can do it right from your bank

James Huber (19:04):

Account. Yeah, because they’re all my bank account has that just in there. I remember one time I was like, I don’t have Zelle, and then I went to sign up for account and they’re like, yeah, you already have one.

Brandon Zorner (19:15):

Yeah, yeah, no, that is a lot of the use cases people, it’s really more trust-based. So people who don’t trust traditional financial institutions like banks or folks who are older and are just used to that process are going to use Western Union. And that includes for domestic, even prepaid cards in the US for example, saw an uptick at least during that time and you’d be like, Hey, why are people using prepaid cards? This doesn’t make any sense to me. There’s a ton of other better mechanisms to use for payments, but it’s really trust related and folks just don’t trust banks. So non-bank financial institutions have big populations that prefer to use them.

James Huber (19:50):

So they trust Western Union more than they trust a bank. What if the stage coach gets robbed on the way?

Brandon Zorner (19:56):

Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. It is been so long since I worked in that industry. I have no clue what creates that trust for folks, but I do think a lot of folks prefer to operate in cash as well.

James Huber (20:09):

Yeah, I’m going to take 200 bucks and send it to Jeremy so he can, that was the other part of the story. It was the dad was sending him money.

Brandon Zorner (20:21):

People prefer to handle cash and to see it and physically manage it. They don’t really trust these digital interfaces. And so as much as people talk about that changing, it hasn’t changed for a long time.

James Huber (20:32):

Cool. Yeah. Alright, well what’s on the horizon for exact? What are the opportunities and threats?

Brandon Zorner (20:42):

Yeah, I think that interestingly, going from around cash in the same way consumers have preferences that are varied and some people want to pay in cash, some with card debit, PayPal, whatever it is. Businesses are the same way. So businesses want to send and receive their money using different mechanisms and their customers want to send and receive money using different payment methods. So for exact, I think we were really focused for a while on making sure that we got underwriting done well make sure that we can underwrite merchants quickly and efficiently. Now we are much more focused on how do we create payment experiences and workflows that allow someone to really pay and get paid in the way that they want to. And that includes things like payouts. So for example, we were one of the first payment facilitations and service providers to really lean into account to account transfers, so like a CH as an example, and now you’ve got RTP and Fed Now and these other things as well.

Brandon Zorner (21:42):

And what we identified with that was there were all of these B2B subscription businesses, invoicing businesses, et cetera, where traditional payback as a service provider was going to come and say, Hey, the cardinal volume’s not there and we don’t really want to take the risk on the large dollar transaction for your $10,000, $50,000 invoice, so we don’t really want to service you. We came in and said, Hey, we’re interested in that. And sure, it might be an 80% aach H 20% card split, but we’re going to lean into that business. And so as we’ve done that and we’ve explored different verticals, each of them has nuanced needs, and I think that’s true across the ecosystem. This kind of orchestration of payment methods, orchestration of ways for people to get paid is becoming increasingly common. And you even see this with Visa launched network tokens. So we accept network tokens, Stripe accept network tokens if you want to get paid across either of our ecosystems and use card credentials from network tokens, very easy to migrate or transfer them in between the two. We work on transferring merchant data all the time and there’s interesting ways to do that. So really I think it’s about focusing on ways for people to get paid, and there’s a lot of different ways for people to get paid, enabling that to ourselves to do that across different providers. So for example, if you wanted to work with Stripe in Australia and us in the us, we’ll enable you to do that through different tokenization mechanisms that we have, et cetera. So it’s really about building a more collaborative and ecosystem with more optionality via orchestration.

James Huber (23:16):

Well, you brought up, I mean I was like, well, I have five different podcast topics that we could go on all of these. One of my favorite ones you brought up, and I think we all need to put our tinfoil hats on for this one is Fed Now. So Fed now rolled out pretty quietly. The big thing I brought up is if they take total control, and this wasn’t my idea, somebody else said is what if they put an expiration on your money and they make you spend it, but what is Fed now doing right now? Because what I see is nothing.

Brandon Zorner (23:55):

I think interestingly, I think there China’s done that China has put an expiration date on funds for different funds that they’ve guaranteed and it creates interesting incentives. So that’s definitely a cool conversation. If

James Huber (24:10):

You think about it, how great for, we know that 70% of our GDP is consumer spending. Woo, woo, spend it. Go for it. Then the other thing, the scary thing is maybe it’s a good thing too, is child support automatically speeding ticket automatically. Bing, bing, bing. They’re just taking it all right away. But is Fed now doing anything right now? I think they’re using it for their stuff, but

Brandon Zorner (24:38):

So I’m not as close to Fed NOW and RTP as they should be. I do believe that Fed now is hooked into major banks. So I don’t think that they have great penetration amongst regional banks or a lot of the longer tail banking system. And as a result of that, I think it’s used for interbank transfers at that level. But I don’t think that there’s a Fed Now rail that’s being used regularly by consumers of a pay fac, and that’s part of why it’s on our roadmap, but we have been slow to integrate those types of mechanisms, is really the aach H Rail is working for us today and saying

James Huber (25:18):

What you said, sorry to interrupt is, okay, so just major banks are using Fed Now before they were just sending a ledger around. So what, because they’re not sending money between the banks, they’re just sending the letters and lines of credit. So what they’re using Fed now just to legitimize that they’re sending fake money.

Brandon Zorner (25:43):

So if you do want to settle a transaction, you can do it on Fed Now rails between major banks, and I do think that there are times where folks are actually looking to move money and settle funds. Right. But yeah, I would agree with you. I think adoption, not, banks

James Huber (25:57):

Aren’t moving real money between each other. They’re just moving ledgers, right?

Brandon Zorner (26:02):

Yeah. So with Fed now, they would be settling funds through, right? I mean, you can’t just infinitely move a ledger through, although that would, are you decrease because I’m

James Huber (26:10):

Pretty, that’s how our whole financial system works.

Brandon Zorner (26:15):

Yeah, they’ll settle funds with things like Fed Now, and even on our side, if you look at how we’re able to settle funds, we have to move funds between our accounts as well, and currently we do that through financial institutions that we work with. Those financial institutions will have to settle funds as well, and that ecosystem is going to increase. People have to integrate into Fed Now, and the more banks that are integrated, the easier it’ll make for those banks to send instant transfers and make that more efficient, cheaper, faster, better. So yeah,

James Huber (26:53):

I mean, I think you’re right. I think everyone’s going to have to use this process. So I would say get in front of it. I think a ton of particularly businesses would be wise to contact you and be talking about, Hey, what’s coming and what do I need to do so that it is seamless. Because if you’re trying to do this with somebody who’s not a payments facilitator, it’s the scrappy ISO guy of like, okay, I’ll put it together. I’ll put you in touch with this guy. I’ll put you in touch with this guy. I’ll do it over here. You guys are a one-stop shop where, and I know you guys have your ear to the rail, you’re listening about what’s coming down. So how can people get in touch with you if they want to use your services?

Brandon Zorner (27:42):

Yeah, definitely. So the best way to get in touch with us is just either sales@exactpay.com or if you really want to hit me up at B zaner, so B, the letter, and then Zaner, Z-O-R-N-E r@exactpay.com. We also have, if you go to exec pay.com, we have a phone number you can call into, which I think is actually rare these days. Most people are email only and that’ll connect you into someone either on our sales or support team. But yeah, I mean, I think we are open to conversations with folks who are merchants that are looking to accept funds typically as emergent. You’re going to have to have a developer to do an integration to us, and we have payment forms called Exact Js, so you’re going to want to at least know how to embed JavaScript in your website. But a lot of the folks who we work with are software platforms, and that is a much more in depth process where folks are looking for a long-term partner to scale their payments business, and we’re going to work with ’em through a process of, call it three, maybe even six months, to land on a model that works for them and begin to build that model out.

Brandon Zorner (28:49):

So it is a more nuanced model in terms of the payments that we’re providing and services that we’re providing to larger software platforms.

James Huber (29:00):

Awesome. All right. Well, Brandon, thanks for joining us today. I see our time limit is up based on that. Jeremy’s door to the studio has opened two times in the last couple minutes. Yeah, exactly. It’s a little, we’ll wrap it up and we look forward to doing this again.

Brandon Zorner (29:16):

Awesome. Yeah. Thanks, James. Thanks, Jeremy. Good to speak with both of you guys. And then yeah, we’ll talk soon.

Speaker 4 (29:22):

Brandon, it was great having you on. This has been the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm today. We’ve had with a special guest, Brandon Horner of Exact Pay. Go check them out over@exactpay.com. Brandon, thanks again James. Thank you as always.

Jeremy Stock (29:38):

Bye-Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Payments Experts podcast, a podcast of global legal law firm. Visit us online today at globallegallawfirm.com.